006: How Can I Support a Cause Without Becoming an Extremist?

Speaker 1 00:00:08 Welcome to the University Elite Mental Health Podcast, where your host, Dr. Hans Watson, helps you to learn the why behind mental health issues that you or someone you love may be facing. Dr. Watson is a nationally renowned psychiatrist who is also an expert in psychotherapy, a war proven leader of the US military, and the only person we know to be an expert in psychiatry, p psycho psychodynamics, diet, leadership, trauma, addiction, marriage education, and more. That's why he was the expert that was flown in to the other side of the country to train the therapist, treating the victims and their families after the recent mass shootings you heard about in Florida. We are excited to help you to understand the why behind some real life situations. And now your host, Dr. Hans Watson, d o Speaker 2 00:01:07 Hi everybody. Welcome back to another podcast with University Elite, where you get to listen in on Jeremy and I having a conversation and, and applying real life to psychology and seeing what the psychodynamics are behind, uh, the things we do. In other words, finding out the why behind our actions. And so today we, uh, once again, we'll be answering some questions, uh, that came to us from the ask a doc, ask the doc section found on the, on the website. And so welcome jarm to another day and, uh, and give us our question that we have today. Speaker 3 00:01:41 All right. Uh, so today's a potentially touchy subject. We've got a lot of, um, things going on in the world today, and the question is, how can a person support this movement without becoming an extremist? Speaker 2 00:01:59 Ah, what movement do you think they're, they're talking about? Did, do they give any indication of that? Speaker 3 00:02:04 Um, well, they, they didn't, um, they didn't give an indication in the co in the question, but, uh, the stuff that's going on right now is a lot of the, um, the Black Lives Matter movement, a lot of the race tensions that's happening in America. Um, there are a lot of riots and a lot of conflict from people, um, kind of just reacting to the tensions and some of the tragedies that have happened recently. So I assume that that's what they're referring to. Speaker 2 00:02:41 Okay. That's, that's very helpful. So, so what we can address today then is how can we support a movement without, uh, with making sure that we're not using this as a distraction from addressing our own things? Uh, and, and also what's the psychology behind those people who are, and then, uh, what if we gave some, some, uh, real life examples of how a person can have a cause address that cause without neglecting the important things in their life without neglecting, uh, um, trying to overcome their adversity in life? It, it's never good to avoid diversity with some sort of a distraction. Instead, it's okay to delay handling it until it's appropriate, but to avoid it all together, that's, uh, that's showing emotional weakness and it leads to bigger problems. Um, and also how can we, how can we have a cause without, without ruining the relationships that we need to stay happy in life? So, um, that would be fine if we address that, if we do that. Do you think we're, do you think we're addressing the, the question here, jar? Speaker 3 00:03:44 Yeah, I think so. Speaker 2 00:03:46 Very good. Then let's, let's jump right in. So, so, you know, one of the things that I typically see within individuals when they become overwhelmed emotionally, um, it, for, for whatever reason, whether it's a death of somebody, whether it's, uh, being unfairly treated, whether it's, uh, whether it's, um, being accused of something they haven't done, Y you name it, whether it's, uh, race being treated unfairly because of, uh, something you were, uh, color of your skin that you were born with or, uh, where you were born there, there's a million different ways the, the, the religion you practice there, there are a lot of different ways. Um, and so in that, let's address that generally. Um, and so as we look at that, there is going to be a necessity for us to understand the psychology behind this. So on an individual level, this can be a distraction to where we don't have to focus on hard things in our lives. Speaker 2 00:04:42 I I know a lot of people who have a failing marriage or have a failure in their, in their workplace, if you remember our conspiracy theory, um, podcast, right? And we talked about how people can then take a conspiracy theory or a cause whether it's a political cause, a uh, cause based on race, a cause based on something else. And even though they are accurate in it, sometimes they can become so passionate as an unconscious way of avoiding confronting their adversity in their life because that adversity just might be more than they can handle by themselves, and they don't know how to ask for help. And so it gets to that point where, whether it's a conspiracy theory or whether it's another theory, um, or denying the evidence of a conspiracy theory or denying the evidence that there is, uh, racial inequality, these kind of things can be a defense. And, and here's the secret. It doesn't matter if you're politically left or politically right or somewhere in the middle. Every one of us is in danger of unconsciously using a cause as a way of distracting ourselves to, from having to confront what we need to. And, and so there's a healthy way to do this, and there's an unhealthy way. So understanding that individual psychology is the first piece. So what are your thoughts on that? Psychology? Speaker 3 00:06:09 Yeah, I'm, I'm interested <laugh>. Uh, I, I think one thing that came to mind when you said there are, it doesn't matter if you're politically left or politically right, I found that it seems very difficult for people to ever focus, um, on, on the intended or desired result if they have to let go of the how or the why that they're, they're doing things. So I, I personally, I feel that, um, the liberals and conservatives generally want the same thing. We all want our kids to be safe at school. We all want our country to be successful. We want our businesses and our neighbors to be healthy and successful, but we're so focused on how we think that will be achieved, that, that we're become enemies with the people that we have the common goal with, because their how is different than ours. Speaker 2 00:07:11 And therein lies, you just said something really important. And that's the second half of the psychology behind this. You've got to understand media, the movie industry, the news industry, the radio industry. So media in general as well as politics. The politicians employ some of the smartest psychologists you will ever not hear of in your life, Speaker 3 00:07:37 <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:07:38 And the reason you won't hear of, of them is it's considered unethical by some people because they're literally taking psychology and manipulating people using it. And so, right, if we know the psychology behind all of this, that's going to empower us to not get trapped one way or the other, and to not, uh, not fall into the trap of, of ignoring evidence that's right in front of us, or buying into evidence that's just made up. And so it allows us to, to actually continue in a healthy and reasonable way to the, to the cause that we want to see happen. And so, so the first thing we have to understand is what is the psychology that's happening between, behind the media and behind the pol politicians? And its this, it's really simple. If you teach somebody the facts about something, if I teach you the facts of why it's good to get a proper amount of sunlight so that your body makes vitamin D while not getting too much so that you avoid sunburns and skin cancer, you are going to be, and we'll make up the numbers, you are going to be 40% convinced that you need to get appropriate amounts of sun. Speaker 2 00:08:54 And when you're gonna be out too long that you need to use sunscreen. And that's a silly example, but you'll only be 40% convinced. However, if I can cause your emotions to make that decision, emotions will cause you to be 98 or 99% convinced, right? Even if you don't know the facts, emotions are twice as strong, maybe even 10 times stronger. But I'm gonna go with twice as strong because I get to throw out the made up statistics right now. Emotions are just much stronger than anything facts and logic can show you. And so if you can get somebody to buy in emotionally, you can oftentimes get them to take 98%, wipe out the 40% of facts and logic mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and they will then become so invested and so dedicated that you can manipulate them to do what you want. And why does this matter? Speaker 2 00:09:57 Well, we know that the media and the politicians have a financial and a power, uh, reason to keep you emotionally invested, right? And so are they going to provide you the facts and the logic to make your own decision so that you understand it? No. Instead, they get to control you. You will watch their show 60% more if we use my made up statistics on the, on the percentage of being convinced. And, and it, I'm sure those are pretty close, but, but they're made up statistics. So if somebody starts quoting it, you have to know, I made those statistics up, but if you now are deciding what to watch, and I have you emotionally hooked at a 98%, you're going to watch my news channel because emotionally you feel connected to me. Whereas the news channel that says, Hey, here's the fats and logic, now you make up your own mind that channel only got you 40% hooked. Speaker 2 00:10:54 Which one is gonna make you come back? So which one is going to be able to guarantee to other people paying for advertisements will have more p people viewing this, or which politicians know, no matter what I do, I just have to go back to your emotions and you'll continue to vote for me, and therefore I stay in power. And so what do we see is the reason these people want to use your emotions instead of facts and truth. They own us. They get to control us. And don't think one side or the other has the monopoly on this manipulation, because it, you look at it this way, which let's take politics, that that seems to be very emotional. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which side, the conservative or the liberal, or you could say Democrat or Republican, or which side has more career politicians that are vested in having people who have vote them into office no matter what. Therefore they can take extreme, uh, viewpoints and not have to work with other people, and they don't even have to accomplish anything. Which side has more of them? Spoiler alert, it's even, right. So both of them have a vested interest, which news company cares more about getting you emotionally riled up. It's even, right, which radio program? You can see where I'm going with this, can't you, Jerome? Speaker 3 00:12:22 Well, and I've even heard of some of the statistics of like how how many of these media channels are owned by the same small group, and in some cases they have the conservative media channel and they own the, um, the liberal media channel as well. And so you can see this, not that they really want to get out accurate news, it's that they're saying, we're a business. Here's a demographic who will buy this stuff, and here's a demographic who will buy this stuff. And we're gonna inventory both of them. We're gonna just put it both out there. Speaker 2 00:12:57 Very good. And, and I'll use an exa the current example that we think the, the, the questionnaire, uh, the questioner, uh, the person asking the question, uh, is, is submitting and, and we think they're referring to the Black Lives Movement, um, uh, question. And so in this case, let's show this. Is the media going to show the people in Black Lives Matter movement who are willing to hear the other side and they're willing to help people understand and work with them and, and just basically say, let's talk about it. Let's hear each other out. Or are they going to take the ones that are going to take an extreme view and they're going to cause emotions to rise up into you, to where then they can leave you on a cliffhanger at a commercial, and you'll be like, I wanna know what else this person said. Speaker 2 00:13:47 Because if you're disagree with them, now your emotions are so strong because you're angry at these extremists. And if you agree with them now your emotions are hooked in, in, on, uh, siding with this extremist, and you can do this. And they're ignoring the fact that in my estimation, 90 to 95% of the people in these movements are not extremists. They're not willing to burn down a, a, a building. They're not willing to be violent against others. That's the minority. But if I'm a news person and my whole job is to cause you as a viewer to have emotions to where you'll be 98% hooked either way, I've hooked you, whether you disagree or agree, who am I going to interview so that I'm going to show that this movement is just extremist? Speaker 3 00:14:36 Right? Right. Yeah, that's, that's very interesting. And one thing that I'd go back to, you mentioned why they don't tell the facts and, and they prey on emotions instead. And that was from a psychologist point of view or a psychological point of view. Um, I, once I worked with, uh, an incredible salesperson, and he didn't, he, he drilled this home more than anything else. He would constantly be saying, backs tell, stories, sell. And so you've got that validation from kind of the used car salesman out there that that knows, oh, yeah, I, I know how to sell stuff. You tell stories, don't tell the facts. So then you're kind of pulling back the curtain on, on all the, uh, on, on all the shady sales deals that, that we're being hit with and bombarded with in our daily lives here, and showing people how to recognize when they're getting bamboozled, maybe a little bit. Speaker 2 00:15:36 Yeah. And it, and it's sad because guess what, I will go on the record and say there is systemic racism that needs to be addressed and fixed. Right? We cannot stay silent on this anymore. Yeah. But I will also go on the record and say, violence is wrong. Speaker 3 00:15:55 Right? Speaker 2 00:15:56 These don't have to be mutually exclusive unless I want to hook you with media. Now, do we need to change things? Yes. Only a only an extremist would say no, that things are equal, that things aren't, aren't, uh, problematic. We need to take a hard look at it. And, and we need to accept that, that, you know, what? Racism is wrong. Systemic racism is even worse. And the, the fact that people wouldn't have equal opportunity even worse. And so the, the idea though, isn't to teach me that and see if we have agreement there, because that would not sell. That would just tell. And so who better than to get somebody who is using this distraction to cause these emotions in me so that I will not leave my politician that says, oh, hey, um, you know, they build up what we call a straw man, which is, uh, I'm against, and let's use a very obvious example. Speaker 2 00:16:58 I'm against, I'm against, uh, rape. I am totally against rape. And if you vote for my opponent, they do something that that hurts victims of rape. Therefore, if you vote for them, you're voting for rape, right? And so who isn't going to say, well, I'm not gonna vote for rape. I am totally 100% against it, right? But then you look at it and know the, the most of the time in politics, what you hear is, no, they're both against rape. They just have different ideas on how to prevent rape, right? But they'll say, look, my idea can prevent rape. Therefore, if you don't support it, you are for rape. And that's a straw, man. So now people come in and say, I'm voting against this person cause he or she is for rape. And the person goes, I'm not for rape. Are you kidding me? Speaker 2 00:17:50 That's such a lie. And so then what do they do? They build their own straw, man. And so now you can see it's a, it's a battle of emotions and it works, right? We look for it, it works. We watch these things. So that's it. So the question now, if we, if I restate it just so that we don't get lost, now that you understand that psychology behind it, the question was how can I support a cause that I have without losing sight of who I am without becoming unhealthy and extreme? That that's, that's the gist of the, the message that I, that I heard in the question. Did I, are we still on the same page? Speaker 3 00:18:28 Yep. Yeah. How can I support the cause without becoming an extremist so and so I think Speaker 2 00:18:34 Very good. So, so what we have to do is we have to recognize that there, I have actually four quick steps that anybody who wants to support a cause while still remaining healthy and ensuring that they're not using this as an avoidance tactic, but instead they're actually supporting a cause while being healthy. It's four simple steps, but it will catch most everything you have. And I'm gonna tell you in the end, uh, make sure I don't forget it, jar. Um, why we want to do this so that we can avoid, uh, extremism and it has to do with, with, um, preserving our way of life. And so, so, uh, and violence. So the first thing that I tell everybody is if you are going to take a cause and, and, and whether it's my patients, whether it's people in a motivational, uh, seminar that I'm giving, whether it's in other things, the first thing you must do, if you have a cause, always have a specific policy you want to see changed. Speaker 2 00:19:37 You can't just come in and say, I want to, I want to end rape. That's our, that's our, um, uh, ridic ridiculous example because I don't know anybody in their right mind who would say that there's any excuse for rape ever. So, we'll, we'll continue to use that. It doesn't matter if it's racism or systemic racism. I agree. That needs to be addressed just as much. And I support, I support the current dialogue that is going on to address this and to talk about it and to find ways. So, and, and, and that's where I say good. Let's, let's have that discussion. And let's start with number one. I look at, um, many of the great people that have brought us from terrible, terrible history to progress, and I say, we are not done. And they all started with the first thing, what is the first policy? Speaker 2 00:20:30 And you look at it, one of the first times I learned about this was in high school or middle school. I don't remember the first time I heard about it, but it struck me and it struck me to the court where I said, this is wrong. And it was the landmark case of, of Brown versus the board of education and the separate but equal where, where systemic racism. This was an early example where we finally had the support Supreme Court recognize it and say, this can't happen. And it was close. It wasn't like it was a landslide. We had to fight for that. And thank goodness our forefathers did. But that was the thing they did first is they said, this is the first specific thing, separate but equal is not okay. And thank goodness they did. So if you have a, whether it's race, whether it's politics, whether it's anything else, first, make sure you have a specific policy you want to see changed. You can't just be a general, uh, a general thing, otherwise you are in danger of acting purely on emotion. And, and this is a good point to pause right here and, and say something I brushed over and just assumed everybody knew. And so that's a, you know, how the assumption game works, right? Speaker 2 00:21:43 And so it is never healthy to act with pure logic like Spock from the Star Trek series, right? Or I, I, I haven't really watched it, but I, there's a show called Big Bang Theory, and I'm, I'm aware that one of the characters has no emotion whatsoever, and he's purely logic. And I even know my patients have told me his name is Sheldon. And, and so I'm aware of this, and they just said, it leads to such hilarious, but real life, terrible situations for this person because he's pure logic. Well, we all know the people who deal with pure emotion, even though the politicians and the media want you to do that, those people are also in a very unhealthy place. They're the ones falling apart at the wrong time. They're the ones overreacting. They're the ones who can't enjoy life because it always feels so dangerous that something might upset them. So there's never a healthy, you always have to have a good balance, logic balanced with emotion. You should never ignore one or the other. And so that's what, that's why the first thing, if you will have a specific policy that forces you to take your emotion and logically figure out what policy could help you to make that change that you were emotionally invested in, that brings it into the healthy realm, that that's the first thing we could do. So, so, uh, what are your thoughts with the specific policy as the first one? Speaker 3 00:23:11 Yeah, I, I think that's good. I think I probably tend to land more on the, uh, try to be all logic side of things. And so I can see how that's frustrating when you, when you come and you approach it that way, or most likely if you approach it the other way as well, it's gonna be hard to get on the same page with people who approach it the, the different way. Speaker 2 00:23:35 Yeah. Otherwise, we're just having an argument about a strawman and we're each arguing a different straw man, and we think we're telling the other person, but neither side is really arguing about the same thing. I see this in my marriage therapy, almost every single couple that cannot get along, it's because they don't have a specific policy they're working on. Right? It's such a simple thing. But even in marriage, this is necessary because one will be pure logic. Logic, the other is pure, pure emotion. And they can't see eye to eye until they come in and I say, what's the specific policy? And I teach them this first step and they go, Hey, wait a minute. Right? Each to come to the middle ground with that first step. Speaker 3 00:24:17 Yeah. So would this be kinda where they say good fences, make good neighbors, where the fence is kind of that common policy, that specific policy that you can both look at it from different views. And I think that each, each of those views is completely valid. They just don't communicate with each other very well. Right? If you're all logic, that's valid, but your emotions are also valid, and you're trying to say that we've gotta get those to come to a common cause. Where am I? Uh, I think I'm right off here. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:24:57 You know, I hadn't thought of that, that metaphor, but I like where you're going. You're, you're doing a great job of reiterating the point that which is yes, a common cause, but you don't even have to have a common cause a common point of discussion. Speaker 3 00:25:11 Okay? Speaker 2 00:25:12 So you don't even have to agree with me when I say Black Lives Matter and this, this, uh, PR police brutality, they're bringing up valid points that must be addressed. You don't even have to agree with me. But then if we stop there, we are in danger of pure emotion getting involved. And instead the next question could be, I'm not sure I agree with you Doc Watson, what policy are you wanting to see changed? Do you notice how it takes it past the emotion where we're just gonna yell at each other? Right? And now we're talking about some specifics to where we could hammer it out. Right? That's why the first thing you need to do is exactly that. And so that's where, you know, when I, when I've engaged with people that have asked me about this, I've said, what is the policy? And would you know what could have been misunderstood? Is we didn't agree In the end they said, oh, well there's no disagreement. We both wanna work on this single thing. Oh, okay. Whereas initially, had I just replied back with my own, you know, black Lives Matter, and had I replied back with, well, all lives matter, Speaker 3 00:26:18 Right? Speaker 2 00:26:19 Wait a minute, are the extremes on both sides getting us to fight so that emotionally we're there? And then they say, well, I'm against racism. And I say, well, I'm against racism too. And then that person says, well, I'm supporting this policy, which could put an end to racism. And I say, boy, I would, I would support that policy. That makes sense. Suddenly we're both going, what was the disagreement again? Speaker 3 00:26:42 Right? Right. And Speaker 2 00:26:43 Notice how we abandon our, our catchphrases. Speaker 3 00:26:47 Yeah. Speaker 2 00:26:48 And we started saying, what's the policy? And now I am actually doing the second step, which the first step leads to the second step. And that second step is having willingness to hear the other side's perspective. Speaker 3 00:27:02 Right? You Speaker 2 00:27:02 Never hear the other side's perspective if we're just beating them up with a strawman, Speaker 3 00:27:07 Right? Speaker 2 00:27:08 You can't have a strawman, or it's, it's more difficult to have a strawman, let me say, you can't, cuz politicians have such smart people, they can create a strawman anywhere. So yeah, take Speaker 3 00:27:18 That Speaker 2 00:27:18 Back. It's more difficult to have a straw man. If I have a specific policy. Now we're talking just like I have with people. And they, they'd say, well, that, and I'd say, oh, I'm absolutely against systemic racism as you've described it. I would support that. Where do I sign for that policy? And they go, oh, well I, I guess I don't have that policy. That's just what I would do. And I said, well, you have my vote. We're on the same page. We don't disagree. Is there any No, no, that's all I'm, you notice how then all of a sudden I'm hearing them, they're hearing me. So if you get a specific policy, then if you're willing to hear the other side's perspective, oftentimes that gives you a place you can work and you're no longer acting on pure emotion and distracting. In fact, many times it takes away that avoidance tactic that we are using, which is I'm painting somebody out to be a bad guy. Speaker 2 00:28:13 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> because of the straw man that I'm using to represent them. Right? Strawman can also be unconscious for us. Right? And so now instead of saying, Jeremy, you're a bad person because you are for racism, right? And then we talk about it and you're saying, uh, I wanna see police reform where, where, uh, you no longer can just pull somebody over for the, the color of their skin, right? And you no longer can, can be rougher with them than you would, uh, a person of a different color skin. And both of us are going, yeah, I totally would agree with that policy. No question. You notice how now of a sudden we're talking about how would we get to that point? Oh, here's my idea of how we could get there. Oh, well here's my idea. You hear how now we're hearing each other's side? Oh, those are different ways. That's what congress won't do, right? That's what the media won't do, right? Because they're invested in you being, uh, emotionally hooked to where they don't have to be accountable. You have blind faith cuz it's pure emotion. Speaker 3 00:29:15 Right? Well, and and you even see this in situations that, like you mentioned earlier, it doesn't mean that you have to agree, it's just that you're not making those assumptions that you've been mentally conditioned by the media to make. And, and it al almost like we need to be programming mental triggers in ourselves to recognize this when we're being fed this kind of manipulation. Say, oh wait a second, you're telling me I have to feel this way about the situation that is, is setting off red flags in my mind that I need to not listen to what you're saying. There's probably something more to it than that. Perfect example is, um, I I have several friends who have served in the military and I have friends who have not, who get really irate about flag burnings. And, and emotionally it is really hard for them when someone burns the US flag and they, they become a social justice warrior or a, or a whatever kind of warrior on social media condemning people for burning the flag. Speaker 3 00:30:31 And then I see some of my US marine fra friends, um, kind of quietly post and say, I risk my life for you to have the right to do that. And it hurts me to my core, but I I defend your right to express your discontent with our country in that way. And, and it's interesting to see that they're not just reacting emotionally, um, even though it is deeply emotional to them, but they are seeing, um, that, that, uh, that they're seeing that point of saying no rights are what matter. And I don't like the way you're using that. Right? But I honor the, the idea that you are able to use that right in the way that you see fit, even though I disagree with the way you see fit. Speaker 2 00:31:34 And do you notice how they're balancing their emotion of, it hurts me to burn the flag with the logic of I believe you have the right to do that. It's in the constitution, right? The Supreme Court has upheld that. So this is the balance we're talking about. And in that case that you just gave, what would the specific policy be? Free speech. Speaker 3 00:31:55 Yep. Speaker 2 00:31:55 They are defending the specific policy of free speech. And do you notice how that person who says, I am not going to, uh, I am going to defend that you have the right to do that. What they're doing is they have a specific policy and they have a willingness to see the other side's point of view. I recognize you are just irate with an injustice or the way you see it, even if it they don't agree with the injustice. It's wonderful that that policy. And then that leads us to the third point, which is we have to start seeing individuals as a mixture of both positive and negative in the same person. Once again, if we color people with all good or all bad, that is pure emotion. And why do people want you to color, um, color, you know, say, say you support, um, a black lives, uh, matter movement. Speaker 2 00:32:51 Well, if somebody that's against that or that wants to get your their hooks into you, they're going to say, let's color black lives movement as all good. If, if there's somebody who says, okay, uh, these people are all good, every one of them, they have nothing negative. Or if you're against it, if I can color them as all bad and get you to believe that, right? First I get you to not have a single, a single policy that you're looking at. Second, I don't want you to look at the other site's perspective. You might actually learn something you agree with. And that prevents you from seeing both good and bad in these individuals, which makes it less likely for you to be 100% hooked in and, and, uh, you know, they've, they don't have their emotional hooks in you at that point. So that's the third way. Speaker 2 00:33:39 And it also stops us from using that as a way of fighting. So, so I would say, uh, Adolf Hitler was about as close to as you can get to all bad, right? But you could become so consumed by hate that you no longer take care of the things in your life. You quit progressing. So now you're in danger of anxiety and depression and now you're in as that decreases, you're in danger of using suicide as a way to escape it. You can just see how terrible that is. And so as you're doing that, the third step is see that people have both good and bad in them. Even some Nazis were kind to their children, right? It doesn't make them good people, but it does mean they have good attribute. Hitler was wonderful with his designing of the Autobahn. Thank goodness he did because I loved the freeway system. Speaker 2 00:34:33 Hitler was a bond be a terrible person. I have nothing but negative feelings towards Hitler, right? However, he did have a positive attribute in designing the OTT vh, right? So I can see something positive among all the overwhelming negative. And so if you're for Black Lives Matter and, and you agree with me that you are for rooting out and actually having the tough discussion about eliminating racial inequality, well that's fine. But those who disagree with you be ready to see the positive in them too. You can't paint them as all good or all bad because now it's pure emotion. And that's a hard one. That one oftentimes takes, takes a lot of emotional strength because it leaves us feeling conflicted inside. How could a good person have differing opinions than me? Does that mean I'm not a good person? And we're challenging some of those things that in order to be a good person, the little lies we tell ourselves, in order to be a good person, I, you have to have my opinion. No, there are other good people with differing opinions and if you were broken down on the side of the road, they probably stopped to help you even though you're voting liberal and they're voting conservative or vice versa, Speaker 3 00:35:52 Right? Yeah. It's, it's so powerful to see the different result that you can have in these situations because it is easy to see right now the results that, that we're having with it being all emotion and, and mental conditioning for each side to assume things of the other. It's just amazing to see that the irresponsibility of the people that are gaining the ratings from, from doing this and that, that, that are gaining from these things just willingly going out and saying, yeah, let, let's just keep it going. Let the money flow. Speaker 2 00:36:39 And you're right. And there is a lot of that happening. I know a lot of people who agree with me on, on taking a serious look at racial inequality and doing it and looking at, uh, instances of police brutality and figuring out ways that we can put an end to it. And I know people who would say, no, I disagree that this is a problem. And, and in the end, guess what? I've been able to be friends with both of them and oftentimes even say, I disagree with you. Here's why. Here's the policy I'd like to see. And then, then they go, oh, well, well I could agree with the end you're trying to get to, but my policy to accomplish the same thing would be different. And I was able to do that by seeing the positive in them and know that they, they're not, I haven't been able to create them to be dehumanized and devil and a devil. Speaker 2 00:37:26 So then, and then the last one, this one is more important and this is the hardest one of all them cuz we've talked about some heavy things here. The last one is if you want to address a policy and you are willing to look at the other sides, and then you are willing to say, I'm gonna see the both the positive and negative. The fourth thing is come up with a reasonable path to forgiveness. And I wanna use Africa as a great example of this. In Africa, there's some terrible warlords and they kidnap children and make them into child soldiers. Now most people here are child soldiers. They don't understand what this means. This means you are put in, a simple example would be you are, each of the kids are too young to really fight back against these adults and they'll be killed if they don't do what they say. Speaker 2 00:38:19 So the child soldiers are then given AK 40 sevens and they're sent into, into rival tribal villages and they just walk in straight lines and they mow down every single person in those villages. And oftentimes it's their own tribe, but they're killed if they don't do it. So when you hear child soldier, it's not that they're going out and becoming a soldier under the age, no. They're being compelled to murder other people against their will. Right? And once they sent in these, um, uh, I don't think it was nato, I believe it was, uh, it was, um, un soldiers and they, they basically, uh, destroyed some of these warlords until they no longer were willing to do child soldiers. And they brought them back to their village. And the key to the village where they were returning was oftentimes these child soldiers had killed family members of the people that lived in their village. Speaker 2 00:39:14 You killed my aunt, my uncle, and my cousin, my mother, my father, right? And they had to find a way to give these child soldiers a way to atone, to reach forgiveness. And they did a wonderful thing. I, somebody very smart came up with this. They actually said, the village is going to come up with a way and they're not allowed to harm you. You can't just say eye for an eye because that never works. Um, but instead what they said was, you have to serve those that you hurt. And which was a very powerful thing. And so these child soldiers often now in their late adolescence or early adulthood, they went in and they said, I killed your, your mother, your father, your aunt, your uncle, your brother, your sister. And they're very sorry for it, but they also gave them away to aone. Speaker 2 00:40:06 And so they went in and they said, this much makes four weeks of you being an indentured servant. And they went in and the stories that I've heard from, from survivors of this was, it was so fulfilling to be able to show them that I'm humbled and I'm willing to do this. And they started to realize I'm a good person who was a child forced into child, uh, servitude there into child soldiering, if you will. And it wasn't all my fault. And I did do heinous things, but it's not like I'm automatically a bad guy. And both parties healed, right? And it all came from that what is the path to forgiveness for those that have done wrong? If there's those that aren't willing to atone, we're, we're not talking about that, that's a different story. But those people who are willing to say, I had no idea, or even I had an idea, but I'm willing to change what is our path to forgiveness, that's not gonna work for politicians and it's not gonna work for media because they lose their ability to manipulate you. Speaker 2 00:41:09 Right? So they're never going to tell you this, but the question was asked of me, how can I be involved in a, a, uh, uh, cause and not lose sense of who I am, not lose my good self? And that's the fourth step, is you've got to come up with a way to those that have wronged you or somebody else to be able to find forgiveness and atonement. And that's hard for many of these extremists cuz they're not looking to forgive somebody as they change, right? They're just wanting to use it as a distraction to act out anger to, to essentially many of them, it's actually power. They feel so powerless in their own lives. They're seeking the counterfeit of controlling others. And so this is the hardest one, but it might be equally as important as any, well, it is equally as important, possibly even more important than the other three, in my opinion. This is the hardest and most important one because it's the one that's going to determine whether you have the strength to be able to handle getting behind a cause and not harming your life or loved ones around you. Speaker 3 00:42:21 Right? Wow, that's amazing. Um, as you were talking about those child warriors and, and what they did, it struck me that that was as much for them as it was for the victims. Like I'm sure in a situation like that, um, a lot of people would've been able to say, these kids were taken from their families, their families were killed, they were injected with drugs and then brainwashed and forced to do things that they never would've done. Well just forgive them. But you were saying that those children needed some way to earn that forgiveness for them to, to feel okay about themselves. And I think sometimes we don't, we don't allow that, um, in, in our solutions for things we only think, um, somebody's wronged us. They need to make it right for us. And we're not thinking, is this method of make what makes it right for me? Is that actually going to help the person who wronged me as well? It's very hard to do that. Speaker 2 00:43:41 I'll even go a step further and say, psychologically it will never work to give one thing to another person if that, if that uh, child soldier had just come in and said, here's $10,000, which would be a just a monstrous sum of money to these people in these villages and then never come back. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, neither side would have, neither side would, would've been able to heal like they did. But what they, what I've heard from the survivors is it got to the point that not only could we forgive, but we learned to love each other. It didn't take away the pain of me having killed their family member. Speaker 3 00:44:21 Right? Speaker 2 00:44:22 But it lessened that pain and we learn to love each other on a real level. And forgiveness happen. And that's where my opinion is. It cannot be, I'm giving you something because you've been wronged. Instead, how am I if I have wronged you, uh, say I'm, I'm a racist and you are a person of color, Jer and I've wronged you. What can I do to serve you so that the two of us learn to work through this? Is it that, uh, I'm a doctor, maybe I'm going to tutor you to help you to get into medical school. And so we're forced to spend time. That's a silly example that may not, may or may not be appropriate, uh, for the situation, right? But the point being, how can you too serve so that you work together in a, in a, in the shared goal of forgiveness and, and earning the right to be forgiven. Speaker 3 00:45:20 Right? Speaker 2 00:45:21 And, and it's never going to work to say, oh, let's stay segregated but equal and we'll just give one person or the person who's been harmed that we've seen that in Sharia law, Speaker 3 00:45:31 Right? Speaker 2 00:45:31 In the Middle East. Speaker 3 00:45:33 Yep. Speaker 2 00:45:34 And what is the result of Sharia Law? We have seen thousands and thousands of wars for thousands and thousands of years in the Middle East. I'm sorry, that's wrong of me. It's not just the Middle East. We've seen it in America, right? We've seen it everywhere. So, so let me correct myself there. That was wrong. It's everywhere, right? If you don't get together and say, I've wronged you, can I serve you? I would like to come over and work alongside of you so that, so that I can earn your trust back. Right? Notice how that means you don't sit there. I don't sit there. What did these child, uh, soldiers do when they returned? If grandma was out weeding in the garden, they were weeding alongside of grandma, grandma was still weeding, right? If, if mom was carrying buckets of water from, cuz they, they weren't fortunate enough to have a well near, nearby or a pump, guess who was carrying buckets of water with mother? Or, these are silly examples I'm making up, but they worked alongside of them, right? Speaker 3 00:46:36 Never. Well, one, one thing that stands out to me on this is, um, if I can use a personal example because what, what it feels like you're saying is that, um, people don't want to just be compensated for a wrong, we actually want that human connection. We want to get that back together. And so I, I think a good example is if, if I do something, um, horrible to my wife, for example, let's say I go out, I cheat on my wife and she finds out she's horribly hurt, but I buy her a new Mercedes or you know, I do something less severe and I buy her flowers, but I keep doing the behavior that's offending her. That's not healthy for the marriage. What she wants is she wants that emotional change where we can change our hearts and get along with each other. And I think that that's kind of what you're saying here is that we could, um, we could say that's it. Speaker 3 00:47:40 Um, this side has to pay reparations to that side. And what's going to happen in that case is one side's going to resent what they're being forced to do. And the other side is, is still not going to get that emotional connection, which is what we really want is for everyone to get along, to love each other, to look past race and color and gender and all these things. That seems to be what we really want. But we're getting all these suggestions of solutions that you're saying won't actually produce that they don't, won't actually change the hearts on the sides and bring us together as human beings. Speaker 2 00:48:22 I'm struggling right now with any politicians or any media that have come out with a specific policy. They haven't even started with number one. I have heard organizations that have come out with policies, that's a good first start, right? But then remember, we need to have a willingness to hear the other side as we're talking about ways to get to that shared end goal. We need to be able to see those that have harmed us, both positive and negative. And and lastly then, we need to provide a way for forgiveness that involves us being forced to work together. Because only when we work together will we actually learn the, the truly good things about these other people and learn to see them as humans instead of see them as this facade that the media and the politicians have us create. Which is, they're all bad, they're all good. I support my politician. They've never done anything wrong. And, and so you can see that's why oftentimes we'll crucify a politician because they did something wrong. I remember, uh, uh, Mitt Romney, now I'm, I'm neither for nor against Mitt Romney. Um, he's no longer, uh, uh, running for any the office. Uh, now that he's no longer president. So I can, I can use his, him and his example. But I remember some organizations in the media especially painted him out to be really bad because he has teased somebody in middle school. Speaker 2 00:49:52 He teased somebody in middle school and this was the dirt. They were digging up on him to show why he was all bad and people bought it. When you use logic, really I would hate to be judged on who I was in middle school, right? I've grown a lot since then. I'd hate to be judged by who I was 10 years ago, 15, 20 years ago. I'd like to be judged by who I am cuz there's a lot of things that I did. Maybe I wasn't, maybe I wasn't purposely harming other people or, or, or purposely uh, doing things to, to discriminate or anything like that. But who's to say that I didn't make a knuckleheaded move that that was ins insensitive, Speaker 3 00:50:30 Right? Speaker 2 00:50:32 And I hope I learned from those examples when somebody said to me, Hey doc, that really, maybe I wasn't doc then that really hurt my feelings when you did this. It made me feel this way to where I could say, I'm so sorry. And together we worked on it and I grew from it. I'd wanna be judged by who I've grown to become. If we hadn't worked together, we, they never get to see who I'd grown to become. If those child warriors didn't get to work with the families they'd harmed and the villages they'd harmed, they would never get to see the growth those child warriors had become as, as they became men. Right? That's why this is important is cuz otherwise both sides lose out reparations don't help both sides to see the growth. Um, you watch it and you say, and I'm okay with reparations being let's work together. Speaker 2 00:51:22 Yeah. Let's both work together. I love that there are some wonderful organizations out there that, that have partnered. And the NAACP is, is one that I really am getting behind. Do you know what they're doing? They're sending people in and the way they're doing reparations are they're sending people into the most disadvantaged neighborhoods and they're having those people help with education programs so they can break the cycle of poverty. Right? And you know, the people who are being, who are being mentored, they're starting to see a different view of the people that have, they've been told by some people are terrible and they'll never help you. And they're saying, actually they are here, they're helping me and they're a lot more like me than I thought. And they're wonderful people. They care about me. And then those people are starting, that are mentoring them, uh, are coming out and saying, these people in these inner cities, they're not the thugs that the media is telling me they are. Right? These are good people. They just never had the same opportunity I did. Maybe the system put them at a disadvantage. I'm not gonna stand for that. I'm gonna do my part in my life. Do you see how finding that way for forgiveness in working together, there's no other way for us to successfully have a cause without that piece it's paramount. That might be the keystone to the whole thing, Speaker 3 00:52:44 Right? Right. And forgiveness is not saying that what someone did was not bad or that it was okay. It's just letting go of the fact that I'm not gonna dwell on it anymore. Like it, it was bad, but now we're gonna start from here and move on. Speaker 2 00:53:02 Well, maybe I think forgiveness from a psychological standpoint is even, even more different than that. Forgiveness does not mean we forget. And it doesn't mean we put ourselves back into a, a harmful or a toxic relationship. It means that once they're showing evidence that they've changed, that we are willing to give them appropriate chances to demonstrate their change. That's what forgiveness is. It's appropriate chances if you had somebody who abused you, it would not be an appropriate chance to give them a chance to be alone with you where they could abuse you again. Right? But it might be appropriate under court supervised visits to see there's, that's forgiveness is an appropriate chance for them to demonstrate. And as they prove their their worthiness with that, then maybe you give more appropriate chances a little more and a little more and a little more. That's what forgiveness is. It's not closing the door on reconciliation if there is evidence of change. Speaker 4 00:54:05 Right? Speaker 2 00:54:06 Cool. So, so that, you know, and, and, and I said, uh, in the end, why is this matter? This matters greatly for a society because otherwise we're all going to lose faith in humanity. And if you listen the way the media and politicians have currently pushed the country, many people have lost faith. And I'm going to tell you right now, I work with many people from all different backgrounds and I have for years. There are more good people still today than there are bad. But we have problems. We need to address them. I agree. We need to confront, uh, as our, as our questioner we assume is asking, we need to confront racism. We need to confront systemic racism. We need to confront, uh, police brutality that none of these are okay. We need to look at ourselves and see if we are unconsciously a part of that. Speaker 2 00:55:04 These are all good things, but we need to follow these four steps so that we're not falsely creating villains where they don't exist. And we're giving people that chance to atone and to have a way for forgiveness so that we can grow closer and stronger as a society. It used to be that even if you hated your neighbor, you used your neighbor when in dire straits, the neighbors would share a cup of sugar with each other. Sometimes now. But I remember one time taking cookies to a neighbor when we, when we first moved in there. And I grew up in a small town to where that's what you did. You moved into a place, you baked cookies and you took 'em over to your neighbor. Either, either. If you could beat the new people moving in, you did that. And if the new people could beat you, they would. Speaker 2 00:55:48 And they would come over with a plate of cookies and say, were new people in town, or welcome to the neighborhood. And they would then that's how they'd get to know each other and they'd find out we're completely different. But they helped each other. When one person's lawnmower broke, you'd see the other one over there mowing their lawn for them. We've lost that. And it's largely because we're no longer worried about a specific policy. We're no longer seeing, willing to even hear the other place's perspective much less, uh, deal with it. We're no longer willing to see the individual as having both positive and negative. And lastly, we don't wanna give a way for forgiveness cuz that might force us to look in the mirror at some of the things we are avoiding, right? And so you can see how that works. Now, what is the danger in this? Speaker 2 00:56:38 As one group is told it's okay to be violent because there's enough groundswell. This pure emotion leads to violence among the extremists. As one group does this violence, don't you think that it's gonna last forever? No cause or no government or no, anything lasts forever. It eventually crumbles. Look at the, the Holy Roman Empire. It was as powerful as any empire. We've seen it crumbled with a large crash. Any movement will. And if you have now made it okay to use violence because you've allowed those extremists to not have a specific policy and to color people as all good and all bad and to never consider the other side's perspective and see if there's part of it that we need to incorporate and not have a way to do that. Well guess what? When your side loses power or popular support, we will see the violence then from the other extremism, we've set a precedence that violence will be okay and they will get enough ground support to now bring violence to the other. Speaker 2 00:57:44 Well, what are they gonna do? They're gonna reciprocate with violence. And violence keeps leading to more violence. And that's when we see civil wars. We are on a dangerous path with the way the media and the politicians are doing this. The only way I know to stop it are those four things. And if we will, we can have a cause that we support that's healthy and we won't jump in too deep and we won't dehumanize, humanize either, uh, other people. We'll be knowledgeable on both sides and be able to say, I hear you. I like what you're saying. You're trying to get the same place. I disagree that that's the best way to get there. Much different. And we're gonna be much more likely to give somebody who has wrongness a chance for reparation. So, you know, and that's, I'll I'll give one final example of why this is so important. Speaker 2 00:58:33 If you look at the US uh, incarceration system, when people break laws, we stopped, I'm going to, I don't remember I studied at one point, but we stopped doing rehabilitation in our prisons. And I think it was near the start of the 19th century, but the date's not important. We stopped decades ago, if not centuries. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And what we started to do is saying we're gonna turn from a rep reparations and learning to do better model to where we're gonna lock people up as a punishment model. Right. Our recidivism rate. And what that means for anybody who doesn't know means people who rebreak the law and get locked up again Yep. Has skyrocketed. In the US we are some of the worst at saying, we're gonna put you in jail to punish you, not to rehabilitate you. And we saw the rec recidivism rate skyrocket and it stayed up. Speaker 2 00:59:35 And we keep people locked up and it's causing a lot of our problems. And this is one of the areas I'd love to see reform. And, and it does, it primarily affects people of color. And so we see, they may not have been taught, you know, one of the studies that I read, the study conclusions came down that fatherless homes, which this is not a, just a problem of any race, but fatherless homes, uh, people of color do struggle with this. They tend to have lessons that weren't learned. And so they tend to, to break laws and get, uh, uh, incarcerated more often. Well, then the system fails them. And this is part of why I believe there is systemic, uh, inequality for people of color. Why the heck aren't we in there then saying, okay, this is your view. You know, your view of what a man should be came from the gangs, right? Speaker 2 01:00:32 Let's talk about that. Let's do some therapy. Why aren't we flooding our prisons with, with psychiatrists and psychologists, right? Why aren't we? Because we are focused on punishing, not on rehabilitating. I'm okay with you. Uh, as part of the, the rehabilitation. There's a consequence. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But we've gotta give a path for forgiveness. And that's, and the other thing, when people come out of prison, we give them no chance to ever get it. You're allowed to, you're allowed to take people and just say, Hey, sorry, you have a, you have a conviction. And they have to report that for what about ones who don't have these, these convictions? Shouldn't there be a little more, uh, perspective in that saying, okay, they did this, but they were a kid and they're not, they don't have to report it to employers forever now, right? There are certain employment categories they do, but not all. Speaker 2 01:01:27 And give them a chance to be defined by who they become instead of who they used to be. This is another good reason we have to start focusing on the way that forgiveness comes. Not just the way to, to be punished or reparations or any of these things. What's the path for to forgiveness where we grow together? Because guess what? I have close friends who are felons and they're good people who made mistakes and they paid the price. We said they should. And people wanna still continue to punish them. And I'm not saying that there shouldn't be consequences. And I'm not saying we put put our our families into situations where they're at risk, but I am saying there needs to be a path. And so I am friends with people who have convictions, but I'm also smart about it. This is the reason we do this because otherwise it is going to be a problem. So that's why these four steps, you can't eliminate any of them. I, I don't see another way to psychologically help us to be healthy, to heal as a, as a, as a country, and to actually get to a place where we actually start making real progress on some of these legitimate problems. So those are my thoughts. J you, you tell me where to go from here. Speaker 3 01:02:40 Well, let's, let's recap those four steps. Cause I'm trying to write 'em down and make sure that I've got 'em. But, uh, but let's just run through those again real quickly. First Speaker 2 01:02:51 Was have a specific policy. Whenever there's a cause, what do you want to see? Uh, the, the perfect one that I, that I love, and I still think it's wonderful, was the women's women's suffrage. Now, for many people, suffrage was a new word to me when I was in college. Heaven forbid it means the right to vote, right? It doesn't mean suff, it's suffrage. So women's suffrage the right to vote. I'm so grateful that the, that that was done. Thank you forefathers, for having the foresight to realize systemic bias. And so how did they do it? Well, it was a lot of people who got behind a cause, but they had a specific policy they were looking for. They wanted the right to vote, right? And then in their debates, if you look back at those women who made the biggest changes, they were willing to do number two, which is hear the other side's perspective, right? And so they were able to take that. And when the perspective was, well, women are inherently not as smart as I'm making them up. I don't, I don't remember what the, uh, what the arguments were because I already, I already am very sure that women are equal to men. There should not be any bias. So I'm not gonna go back to what the, what the, the, Speaker 3 01:04:05 I think a lot of it was that, uh, women were going to be controlled by their husband and would only be able to vote the way their husband told them to. So, and it would Speaker 2 01:04:16 Be it, you say that, I'm remembering some of them, some of them were that due to the uterus, the women were purely emotional and therefore could not rationally be dependent on to use logic and make a, a clear decision, but ridiculous, we know today, just ridiculous. But they took that, they heard the other side and then they, they were able to give examples and say, I hear you, that, that our uterus makes us unable to be rational. However, who is the person you go home to every night in order to, well, my wife and your wife is not well, no, my wife is rational, and your wife doesn't deserve to vote. So they were able then to work with that. But they did hear them out. And that's why number two is there. Speaker 3 01:04:55 Ok, Speaker 2 01:04:56 Cool. Excuse me. Third one, willingness to see the individuals you disagree with, that they have both positive and negative attributes. So see, the positive and the negative in all people doesn't mean you have to agree with them. And it doesn't mean you have to think they're overall a good person, but you must be willing to see positive and negative in, in everybody. Okay? That way you're looking at individuals instead of dehumanizing groups, Speaker 3 01:05:26 Right? And you're balancing some of that logic in with the emotion. Speaker 2 01:05:32 Yes. And then lastly is the one that we've hammered home and, and I think is the most important one, which is a path for forgiveness, Speaker 3 01:05:40 Right? Speaker 2 01:05:46 If we do those, all of us can have good things. And, and I'm gonna go as far as to say you need to have some, something you're fighting for that's necessary for you to be healthy. We need to have something that we're pushing for and trying to accomplish. It allows us to make progress in our lives. It brings us progress, brings us happiness and self-confidence and self-esteem. And so if you have nothing you're fighting for in your life, you're going to be miserable, but you need to do it safely. It's kind of like you need to get some sunlight, but not too much, right? This is the same thing. You need to have a cause and your cause can be your family. Your cause can be helping a troubled child. There are, there is no limit to the causes you can choose, but you need to have those four steps in order to be healthy and have good balance in your life, Speaker 3 01:06:39 Right? Incredibly powerful. Speaker 2 01:06:42 All right, so as always, we, we appreciate you guys dropping in on Jeremy and I having a conversation. And thanks for the submitted question. What a good one. I hope, uh, I hope we've been sensitive to, um, people's, uh, viewpoints on some of these causes. Um, it's really important to us to be willing to take our own medicine and hear all sides of the story. And then to be good stewards, we need to be involved. We need to have causes. It's not okay for us to be disengaged civilly, um, in our, we should have, uh, a hand in our, in our government. We should have a hand in our representatives. And if we know our representative isn't willing to balance both, we should vote people in there who are willing to, to have specific things. They stand behind, they're willing to talk about the other side and the merits of the other side's approach. Speaker 2 01:07:28 This is where we're going to be healthy as a country and will be able to put a stop to pure emotion. And, uh, just so you know, university Elite does not, uh, support any political cause one way or the other. <laugh>. Uh, we support patients. That's our goal. We, we are not into politics. We are not into media. We are into making you so good that you no longer need our care. And that's our entire focus is to help you do that by learning the why. So if you wanna see more, please check into our, our website, university elite.com. And if you wanna submit a question, we're always there and we'll uh, catch you on the next one. Speaker 3 01:08:04 Thank you, Dr. Watson.